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JD McGee
USA
1449 Posts |
 Posted - 06/20/2012 : 06:22:47
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When signing up for competitions be sure you read and fully understand the fine print on the registration form you just signed. This statement on the form allows the event to take photos of your turn in boxes during judging and use them however they wish...like this...
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.441997805824944.103530.100000441862292&type=1
"…I hereby grant full permission to (Event Name) BBQ Cookoff, the PNWBA, and/or their agents authorized by them, to use any photographs, videotapes, motion pictures, recordings or other record of this event for any legitimate purpose."
If you feel this is not right...I urge you to contact the PNWBA Board of Directors to voice your opinion.
Cheers!
JD |
Wine Country "Q" Competition BBQ
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Iso
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 07:09:09
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Why would you think this is not right?
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Respects,
Bryan
Dead Man BBQ
Washington State Spring BBQ Championship (4/27 & 28)
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JD McGee
USA
1449 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 07:33:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Iso
Why would you think this is not right?
Well...for starters...if I wanted pictures of my turn in boxes on the internet I would post them there myself...also we have worked very hard over the years on our box layouts and feel we have them down to where it gives us an edge on presentation scores...why on earth would I want to share that edge with competitors? Need I say more? |
Wine Country "Q" Competition BBQ
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Rustys BBQ
Canada
168 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 08:08:13
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quote:
Originally posted by JD McGee
quote:
Originally posted by Iso
Why would you think this is not right?
Well...for starters...if I wanted pictures of my turn in boxes on the internet I would post them there myself...also we have worked very hard over the years on our box layouts and feel we have them down to where it gives us an edge on presentation scores...why on earth would I want to share that edge with competitors? Need I say more?
I 100% agree with John here. This is a competition and if he believes he gets a competitive edge by what he does he deserves it. We all do something different and even though presentation scores arent worth as much they still count. If people can see what a turn in box looks like we should post our recipe on our box as well to show for our taste(I know thats a little extreme but you get the point). If all our boxes start looking the same there will be no variety.
With all that said, can I see your presentation next time John? I'm curious now.
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Black Superior SS-2
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Onyx Oven w/ blue DigiQ
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WSM 18"
one touch silver kettle 22.5"
yellow therma pen
http://WWW.THEBBQSHOP.COM |
Edited by - Rustys BBQ on 06/20/2012 08:13:22 |
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Rustys BBQ
Canada
168 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 08:10:12
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I feel a real good debate coming.
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Black Superior SS-2
Black Superior SS-3(on order)
Onyx Oven w/ blue DigiQ
Primo XL oval
WSM 18"
one touch silver kettle 22.5"
yellow therma pen
http://WWW.THEBBQSHOP.COM |
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upnsmokin
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 08:14:14
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There is no need for pictures to be taken during judging.
I agree 100 percent with JD, if i want people to see my turn ins ill post pics myself.
Pictures of the teams, cookers, banners as well as individuals at the events are fine but the turn ins should fall under the common sense thing and i cannot believe that they do it. |
UPNSMOKIN
Custom Smoked Meats
Brett Schreyer
Smokin on a modified Diamond Plate Fat 50, 4-22"WSM's,3-Treager 075, Caja China model 2 |
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michael eckert
USA
175 Posts |
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upnsmokin
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 08:30:33
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True enough but the picture available should be posted by the teams that want people to see them.
Its not a matter of knowing who made the box , its a matter of other teams being able to copy or duplicate someones idea.
Judging should be blind before, during and after.
I have posted some pics of past boxes i have done and if someone wants you use that layout more power to them. as far as my current boxes i would like to keep it for myself for a while.
There is enough shigging going on, we dont need the events contributing to it. |
UPNSMOKIN
Custom Smoked Meats
Brett Schreyer
Smokin on a modified Diamond Plate Fat 50, 4-22"WSM's,3-Treager 075, Caja China model 2 |
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Iso
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 08:52:04
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This is standard verbage in every PNWBA and KCBS contests.
From a local KCBS comp: "Further, I hereby grant full permission to event organizers, the KCBS, and/or their agents authorized by them, to use any photographs, videotapes, motion pictures, recordings or other record of this event for any legitimate purpose."
What would be great is to have pictures of perfect presentation scoring boxes put on this website to help educate and bring up new cooks.
From the EC's perspective these images are invaluable for introducing competitive BBQ to potential sponsors. That is unless every one enjoys paying $200-$300 to enter a competition with a small prize purse. Events try to keep the entry fees low. To do that the difference has to be made up somewhere usually through corporations giving money.
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Respects,
Bryan
Dead Man BBQ
Washington State Spring BBQ Championship (4/27 & 28)
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Edited by - Iso on 06/20/2012 08:53:19 |
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upnsmokin
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 09:03:36
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what ever happened to learning and earning your craft???
There is so much help on the web and at every contest by almost all the cooks that i think this is just going to far.
bringing up new cooks is great but i think they should still take some pride and figure out a few things for themselves.
To make it real easy for everyone we should set up a box station at all contests where we all bring our meats and have a special team make them all exactly the same and then eliminate all presentation scores, that would make it easy for experienced teams as well as newbies. |
UPNSMOKIN
Custom Smoked Meats
Brett Schreyer
Smokin on a modified Diamond Plate Fat 50, 4-22"WSM's,3-Treager 075, Caja China model 2 |
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Deena
USA
1485 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 09:07:24
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Hi guys.. for someone who has been running these events for many years now for many sponsors having access to take pictures anywhere at the event is a deal breaker for them. They want full access for the money that they are giving for prize money. That prize money has allowed us to keep entry fees low. With that said MOST of our contests we generally do not have photographers taking photos of turn ins.. we try to only have general overview pictures of the judging area. If they do, sponsors really like taking pictures of the extra category turn-ins which tend to be more colorful and interesting to look at. I'm sure if you ask KCBS event coordinators they would tell you the same thing.
Christene |
Christene James
Raven's Fyre BBQ
Master Judge #200002
Member #100001
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gary hedger
Netherlands
152 Posts |
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upnsmokin
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 09:21:44
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and that makes perfect sense.
keeping sponsors happy is a real big deal so we can have these events.
most would not care if the main turn ins were excluded.
BBQ is a craft, a way of life for alot of us and most have learned over the years how to do it well. The new teams need to do nothing more than get on the internet and duplicate what everyone else has learned and perfected over the years.LEARNING is what makes this fun not just winning out of the gate.
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UPNSMOKIN
Custom Smoked Meats
Brett Schreyer
Smokin on a modified Diamond Plate Fat 50, 4-22"WSM's,3-Treager 075, Caja China model 2 |
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michael eckert
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 09:39:40
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| If a team wanted to get a heads up on whats winning, all they have to do is sign up and judge a couple comps, then they would get a real look AND be able to taste the winning profiles. |
"2012 Rookie Team of the Year"
"Tombstone BBQ"
http://tombstonebbq.com
"Centralia Shop'n Kart"
72" custom built reverse flow trailered pit, 18" WSM, Kenmore Elite gasser, SM 25# smoker, ECB.
PNWBA Board Member
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upnsmokin
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 09:40:54
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BINGO!
LEARN dont copy |
UPNSMOKIN
Custom Smoked Meats
Brett Schreyer
Smokin on a modified Diamond Plate Fat 50, 4-22"WSM's,3-Treager 075, Caja China model 2 |
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DMee
USA
143 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 09:44:14
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I agree with JD in that there should not be pictures of specific boxes taken during the judging and subsequently posted. Posting of box photos should remain at the discretion of the individual teams.
I have no problem with the photos of the extra categories, because they are usually unique to each competition, and seldom use the same topic ingredient twice in a year.
While appearance scores don’t weigh as much as in previous years, all I can say is the fellow who placed second at Las Vegas lost $5,000 by 4/1000 of a point. It doesn’t matter whether that 4/1000th came from appearance, texture, or taste – it all matters.
Is it nice to see pictures of the judging? Yes, but maybe in a long or wide shot photo composition. I can understand if I was a judge and there were no photos of what I did at the contest, I would be a bit disappointed.
As far as ideas for boxes, there are plenty of resources on the web, including http://www.bbqcritic.com where they have judge’s rate pictures of turn in boxes, complete with comments. The comments on what makes the box work and where they messed up is far more valuable to a new team.
As far as promoting the contest to potential sponsors, you can grab a whole host of pretty boxes off the web to show them if they really want to see specifically how a turn in box looks. I think it would be a better promotion to show the PEOPLE at the contest having a good time. People are the ones who spend money on equipment, hotels, etc.
Now I’ll fess up- the photo of the Pecan pie is mine.
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upnsmokin
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 09:48:04
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Congrats Diane on your finish a few weeks ago.
The pecan pie was awesome as was the chili!!! just sayin |
UPNSMOKIN
Custom Smoked Meats
Brett Schreyer
Smokin on a modified Diamond Plate Fat 50, 4-22"WSM's,3-Treager 075, Caja China model 2 |
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gary hedger
Netherlands
152 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 10:03:32
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RANT ON!
New cooks can take a class if they want some idea's on presentation. I was astonished at the pics of what seems to be nearly all competitors boxes. Sure is a lot more teams slicing pork than I had anticipated. While this may be fine with some teams it is NOT with others! Permission to show a teams turn in box should be cleared with said Team! I have no problem helping new teams in any way I can including how to arrange a box however when a Team hits on something that works for them I certainly don't blame them for not wanting everyone to see it. When we were a new Team there were no shortage of seasoned cooks willing to help us out in fact I cant recall anyone unwilling to lend a hand at advice on cooking or helping unload a heavy smoker out of a truck. But I don't want pics of my boxes shown online after all your opening new teams to ridicule as well as seasoned teams to shigging extraordinaire. SO STOP IT ALREADY! As far as comp costs going to $200.00-$300.00 for little prize money well there go your qualifiers. These are the kind of things that turn some teams away from the PNWBA! |
Smoke it if ya got it BBQ Team
CBJ 200806
http://smokeitifyagotitbbq.com/
https://www.facebook.com/smokeitifyagotitbbq
Alias The Threadkiller! |
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Iso
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 10:28:30
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quote:
you can grab a whole host of pretty boxes off the web to show them
I'll pass on the potential copyright violations and ensuing legal claim. Thanks.
quote:
As far as comp costs going to $200.00-$300.00 for little prize money well there go your qualifiers
KCBS comps still seem to be successful regardless of how much they charge. Even the local ones in that price range are fielding teams.
quote:
sponsors having access to take pictures anywhere at the event is a deal breaker for them.
Exactly.
Picture taking is going to happen. Finding and keeping sponsors happy is a crucial key to making these events happen. This will become even more important as the number of events continues to increase causing competition between events to attract teams (i.e. Langley & BOB). |
Respects,
Bryan
Dead Man BBQ
Washington State Spring BBQ Championship (4/27 & 28)
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Deena
USA
1485 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 10:42:31
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I discourage any pictures by sponsors in the judging tent as it can be disruptive, we also do not let judges have cameras or cell phones on the judging table. Some sponsors do come in and take general judging photos but we require then to be out of the way of judging. I personally would not have allowed the sponsor to sit there and take pictures of every entry but this contest is not the only contest where I have seen this ... I've seen many sets of pictures from events sanctioned by other organizations... like KCBS, ICBA, where they post pictures. Remember alot of cooks are also judges so they see these boxes.. once it's turned in it's not secret anymore.
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Christene James
Raven's Fyre BBQ
Master Judge #200002
Member #100001
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JD McGee
USA
1449 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 11:25:48
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| I have no problem with random photos of whatever being taken by event staff outside my pit area and outside the judging tent. I also understand the event wanting to take photos to post on their website etc to promote future events. I do have a problem with a photographer inside the judging tent taking photos of turn in boxes as they are presented to the judges. To me this is wrong and I will not cook an event where this is condoned...period! |
Wine Country "Q" Competition BBQ
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DMee
USA
143 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 12:11:16
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There is this item from the PNWBA Judging Rules:
"Discontinue chatting with visitors (visitors are not allowed in the judging area)."
Perhaps we are missing the enforcement of this item which would preclude visitors (and I would include photographers as visitors)from being there during the judging.
I agree with Christene in that I would find it distracting to have a photographer present during the judging. They could potentially say something like "Wow that looks great."
I think that the only people present in the judging area during the judging should be the Head Judges, Table Captains and their assistants, and the Judges themselves. (If I missed some other official people who should be present, I apologize.) But sponsors, event organizers, and other people who are not directly involved with the judging should perhaps not be present in the judging area during the actual judging time. |
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upnsmokin
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 12:57:31
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i just read the waver we all sign and no where does it say that PNWBA will allow anyone to photograph turn in boxes. it just states that all pictures , video ect can be used but Diane is right about no visitors in the judging area, therefore this disscussion should now be over being the PNWBA reps have our backs on this and no pics should be taken to start with.
Thanks for clearing things up Diane. |
UPNSMOKIN
Custom Smoked Meats
Brett Schreyer
Smokin on a modified Diamond Plate Fat 50, 4-22"WSM's,3-Treager 075, Caja China model 2 |
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Iso
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 13:16:05
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we also do not let judges have cameras or cell phones on the judging table.
I have seen judges taking pictures with cell phones and pocket cameras at every event I have judged. This is something the TC & head judges need to deal with.
I think John and Diane both have valid points to consider wrt interfering with the judging process. Thinking about it I could also see this being an issue where the judging space is limited.
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Respects,
Bryan
Dead Man BBQ
Washington State Spring BBQ Championship (4/27 & 28)
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Deena
USA
1485 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 13:32:06
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Bryan,
If you ever see a judge taking pictures.. other than a head judge taking a picture of a DQ you should tell the table captain or head judge right away. They should not be doing that. |
Christene James
Raven's Fyre BBQ
Master Judge #200002
Member #100001
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gary hedger
Netherlands
152 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 14:04:42
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ISO comparing KCBS prize money to PNWBA is ridiculous! KLA HA YA DAYS is $10,000.00 If PNWBA wants to throw in some cash and make these events that kind of prize money I'll gladly pay $200.00-$300.00 for entry!
As far as pictures in judging tent go's it would seem that at the event in question the pictures should have been stopped simply because it's against the rules as stated earlier in this thread!
Perhaps more training by PNWBA for organizers, Table Captains, Judges, and Head Judges is in order to prevent further misunderstanding of the Rules!
I agree with J.D. and will follow his lead by not cooking any event which condones this illegal behavior! |
Smoke it if ya got it BBQ Team
CBJ 200806
http://smokeitifyagotitbbq.com/
https://www.facebook.com/smokeitifyagotitbbq
Alias The Threadkiller! |
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Deena
USA
1485 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 15:19:53
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Gary... I'm sorry I have to disagree with you on the prize money issue.
Just this weekend we have BC Festival at $15,000
plus the following events
Cloverdale at $10,000
Battle of the Bones at $10,000
Canadian National BBQ $15,000
CattleBoyZ $10,000
Stumptown at $8000
Tree Top at $25,000
and most of our events are in the $5,000 range..
I'm confused.. that sure sounds like good prize money.
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Christene James
Raven's Fyre BBQ
Master Judge #200002
Member #100001
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waynef
Canada
571 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 18:53:06
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And Gary it should be pointed out that not all contests are $200-300 dollars to enter $85 dollar entry fee and $15,000 in cash and prizes is not to bad as for pictures of turn in boxes not in favor of it at all and will avoid it at the BC Festival
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Wayne Fettback
Mad Cow Barbeque
http://www.madcowbbq.com |
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Numbersgrl
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 18:55:34
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It took us these past years of competing, paying for classes, and taking photos of our own boxes, then evaluating our own product against judges comment cards to get to today's product. I love BBQ AND COOKING AND LEARNING, I wouldn't trade the process for a shortcut.
I am not only ask the board to stop photos of turn-in boxes but also ask members to join me in not looking boxes at online. I will NOT be looking at others photos whether it is legal in the association or not. I want our product to be have the integrity of our development.
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Charlotte
Movin' The Chains BBQ Team |
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MADDOG
Ireland
792 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 19:10:17
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If a box looks like crap, the appearance score bombs and I don't care if you have tens on texture and taste, you aren't walkin' with hardware. with that understanding, many of of have worked diligently to come up with VERY strong and unique arrangements in our turn-in boxes. If I saw photos of those publicly displayed I would be disappointed.
Now is a good time to note that I/we have seen them and I/we have seen some from other PNWBA teams that I can identify by virtue of the color of objects around the boxes.
They were NOT taken in the judging tent.
I can live with NO VISITORS in the judging tent. I think that's very appropriate. Yes, a photrapher not involved in the judging process is a visitor. It would be easy enough to get a promoter to understand that the judging environment is closed - simple.
In conclusion, we've seen far more box pics publicly displayed which were taken outside of the judging environment than inside. Right JD? |
Pat "Maddog" Maddock
PNWBA Secretary 2013-14
CBJ#200412 KCBS#60627
Webers, Traegers and a magic, translucent Thermapen
MADDOG'S BBQ
Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It will frustrate you, annoy the pig and delay the damned BBQ! |
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swamprb
USA
1391 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 19:40:50
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WOW!! Get over yourselves!
The 3 Elements of Evaluation for Judging criteria place less weighting on appearance scores and more on Taste and Tenderness/Texture.
So...guys like me that banked on Appearance scores in the past, now have to work even harder to cook outstanding BBQ- maybe just something you all should consider??
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I want to point out that the photographers hired by the Cloverdale Rodeo organizers were respectful of our cook space and asked permission to take pics when they felt we were doing something that looked interesting to them. Yes, I saw a couple of my boxes in the Judging tent, but big deal-my face wasn't in them, so who will know?
Read the fine print, agree to the terms-
or stay home.
"where's the pics?"
Now lets discuss SAUSAGE!
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Brian Moriarty
PNWBA Board Member, CBJ/KCBS CBJ
Left Hand Smoke 2010 PNWBA Team of the Year
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Read the fine print...
